Obviously I will be supporting Moshe Feiglin and all the other Manhigut Yehudit affiliated candidates. But I have 10 national votes + 1 regional + 1 oleh (I think - pls correct me if I'm wrong), and AFAIK there are only 4 actual MY candidates:
- Moshe Feiglin
- Sagiv Asulin (youth)
- Asya Entov (olah)
- Shmuel Sackett (oleh - competing with Entov? Or is he regional - Yo"sh?)
This political vote-bartering is pretty much what used to happen in the Likud merkaz, when that body used to select the Knesset list. Now that it's in the hands of the party rank and file, our votes are going to be a lot harder to control.
This, I think, is especially so in Manhigut Yehudit, where the membership by its very nature is very independently minded and doesn't just do because it's told to. An example of this is the little brouhaha caused by the Keti Shitreet deal, which has alienated Freddy Moncharsh, a longstanding and dedicated MY activist who had previously announced his intention to compete for the Jerusalem spot. I'm not going to get into the politics of who said what, who's in the right and who backstabbed whom - it is sufficient to note that we in the Jerusalem region now have a choice of voting for, inter alia, a non-MY person who has the endorsement of the MY top brass, or a MY person whom we know shares our values and will promote them in the Knesset.
I expect there will be similar conflicts of interest surfacing before Dec 8. I doubt MY will do any deals with the likes of Dan Meridor or Asaf Hefetz, but it is entirely probably that they will support mediocre candidates and not come to terms with top class people like Benny Begin and Moshe Yaalon. I'd like to vote my conscience, but then I also don't want to undermine MY's bargaining ability next time around, if people realize that they don't have any control over their voting members.
Another little complication - Rambam in Hilchos Melachim states clearly what the criteria are for appointing someone to public office: male Jews-from-birth who are shomer Torah umitzvos. I'd love to vote for Ayub Kara, given his almost embarassingly vehement pro-Jewish, pro-Eretz Yisrael views - but he's not even Jewish! I'm not sure just how frum Begin and Yaalon are, and Asya Entov is a woman. I don't even know if there are 10 candidates competing who meet Rambam's qualifications!
I'd love to hear what you think, even if you're not a Likud member. Please leave your comments!
20 comments:
I think the Rambam's criteria only apply in case there is a competition for one spot by two candidates - then you should choose which to vote for based on the Rambams criteria (and even then only if they are equally qualified perhaps?).
However, if the Rambams criteria do not apply, such as where only non-religious are running, then you should be able to vote for one of the secular candidates.
I like Begin, but am wary. He is a man of great integrity, and I used to like his positions, but who knows what he thinks now... Since he left politics, and his new embrace of Bibi when they could not look at each other previously, I am concerned he will sell us out and show us he has changed his ideas..
I have no real reason to think that, but it is a feeling I get...
Kind of like what Ariel Sharon did (to a greater extreme). I think Begin will surprise us with much more centrist-left leaning than we expect..
Personally, I will be voting MF, and his 3 other candidates. But I will also vote for those I like to fill my list.. Some of them might overlap with MFs recommendation, some might not.
Ayoub Kara definitely gets my vote.
Lmaaseh, do you think that the voting patterns of Yechiel Leiter, and Yosef Fox will be that different than the Manhigut candidates? Isn't it better to support candidates that by and large will vote the way you want, but won't scare the living daylights out of middle Israel?
I don't know about Yossie Fuchs, but Leiter does not sound like he is in line with MY thought.. according to the comments at http://cosmicx.blogspot.com/2008/11/whos-jew.html (I don't know about him personally).
Heck, if he was part of the Moetzet yesha, that is enough reason for me to not support him.
Rafi,
Let me get this straight. Membership in Moezet Yesha makes one possul for the job of Likud MK?
I personally have developed a great dislike for Moetzet Yesha, and for me it is a very strong reason to possul a candidate.
Granted, I do not knwo what he did in Moetzet yesha, or what years he served them.
But I have repeatedly found them to be acting as agents of the government rather than as agents of the Yesha residents.
That along with the other comment about his support for dismantling communities means Leiter will not get my vote, but more to the point it means he is not in line with Manhigut policy and voting, which was the original question by the commenter.
I'm with Rafi about Moetzet Yesha - big CV stain.
I barely know the other candidates. Aside from Ayoub Kara, who stands out for you as a really good candidate to support? Michi Ratzon was a deputy minister who gave up his job to vote against hitnatkut. All the other Likud "rebels" of the time didn't lose much more than the good grace of Ariel Sharon, other than minister Uzi Landau, who very disappointingly has left the Likud altogether now.
what I am going to do is wait and see MYs list of recommended candidates... If they choose good people (to fill the remaining slots), I'll vote with them.
If they choose lackeys just because they have nobody else to support, I'll find others. Probably Begin and Yaalon, even though I am nervous about Begin. My fears are not based n anything specific, so i have to go with his history which is good.
Who else? I don't know yet at this point. I just got a list of all the Likud candidates by email, so I will go through the list and choose some names.
Assuming I have no specific preferences, I would then go with MYs list of recommendations...
I also like Tal Brody, but I think he is running on a regional slot so I dont think I can vote for him...
Here is the official list of candidates for the Likud primaries. (The website only appears to work in IE; it looked terrible in Firefox.)
What in the world is Manhigut poicy and voting?
This is Shlomo Goren signing in.
I am very disturbed about the MY internal rifts cropping up around voting strategy. It's not the first time, and there seems to be a developing pattern of MY turning out to be more a vehicle for getting specific people - i.e. Moshe Feiglin - in the Knesset and the gov't, as opposed to the more abstract idea of getting ppl with the right beliefs and attitudes in.
While it would seem obvious that Moshe himself could best represent those beliefs, he himself has often mentioned that it need not be him personally. The fact that his political moves seem to belie that statement are troubling to me, as well as the idea that "getting in" seems to have become an end in itself, which bodes ill for actual policy once in. It's happened before, folks.
As for others, I have no problem voting for Kara, nor for other "rebels" who took a brave stand. I have the roll call from the Expulsion vote, and hope to compile a Likud "who's who". I refuse to vote for any MK who betrayed his party's stated position (not to mention their country and countrymen) for political maneuvering, no excuses (yes, that means you, Mr. Steinitz).
In addition, I am definitely voting for Moshe Muskal, the father of Rafanael HY"D, who began a vocal public campaign to bring down the gov't after Lebanon II, and has expressed clear positions and values I can identify with (I also knew him, and Rafanael, personally).
About Kati vs. Fred I am torn. On the one hand, I am bugged by the unpleasantness surrounding the whole thing, as above. On the other, I am not sure that Fred is a better political bet. I have an assurance from Avraham Perahia that Kati's values are sound and in keeping with MY, tho she's not a card-carrying member (which doesn't mean as much as it used to for me), and that we shouldn't hold her previous job against her. Then again, I'm not sure I trust the deal itself. Fred intimated that it's part of some larger ploy to get Sagiv in at Feiglin's expense. Then again, I don't exactly see eye to eye with Fred on everything, either. If I could be convinced that the deal would hold, I think I might vote for Kati anyway. Needs more thinking. I plan to daven carefully on the Har next Thursday. You should come, too.
Having discovered that list of candidates, here are the ones I find of interest, along with my current leaning as far as getting my vote (* indicates they were one of the anti-Sharon "rebels"):
- Yuli Edelstein (probable*)
- Sagiv Asulin (yes)
- Gilad Erdan (possible*)
- Benny Begin (probable)
- Gila Gamliel (possible*)
- Zev Jabotinsky (maybe - I like his name, but does anyone know anything else about him?)
- Yechiel Chazan (was anti-Sharon rebel*, but also implicated in a double-voting scam, so no vote from me)
- Moshe Yaalon (probable)
- Ehud Yatom (possible*)
- Moshe Kachlon (possible*)
- Chaim Katz (possible*)
- Osnat Mark (I heard that MY was doing a deal with he - but who is she?)
- Leah Nass (possible*)
- Gidon Saar (possible*)
- Shmuel Sackett (yes - he's running for the national list, not yo"sh or oleh)
- Moshe Feiglin (yes)
- Michael Kleiner (whoa - is that really he of Herut fame? If so, how did the media miss that one?)
- Ayoub Kara (probable)
- Ruby Rivlin (probable*)
- Michi Ratzon (probable*)
- Asya Entov (yes)
- Fred Moncharsh (Jlem - probable)
- Kati Shitreet (Jlem - Fred's rival, supported by MY, but chances are I'll support Fred)
Hey Guys,
There are actually 5 Manhigut Yehudit candidates.
In the national spots, there's Moshe.
For the Olim, there's Asya Entov and Shmuel Sackett. They are running for spots 21 and 30. The top 2 Olim get those spots, so please vote for both of them.
Then there's Sagiv Asoulin. He's running for the Young Likud spot - number 35.
And Boaz Ha'Etzni is running for the Yesha spot - number 36.
Please DON'T VOTE FOR LEITER. HE IS NOT WITH US. He told a group of Jews in NY a few months ago that he's against destroying settlements. I stood up with a plan called, "The Leiter Plan" which he wrote which called for destroying 11 settlements. He refused to discuss it.
AFterwards, he came over to me and said, "I can tell American Jews anything and they'll believe me."
He's an evil SOB.
I don't want this to sound bitter or
vengeful, and this is not where I am coming from regardless of what is happening with me in/out of MY.
Sagiv Asoulin, was brought into MY by Joel Bell, an evangelist who once threw a lot of money into Moshe's and MY's pockets.
At some point, MY decided to break from Bell and take a stand against $ from goyim, well before Sagiv came to MY.
Moshe and Fuah close their eyes to the fact that Bell is financing Sagiv's entire campaign.
Sagiv has been making the deals for MY through Fuah. He is the shidduch man. He brought Vaknin and Feiglin together. He brought Kati Shiteet to Fuah. He brought Osnat Mark to Fuah, and I have no idea how many more.
I am convinved that the payoff for each of these deals will go to Sagiv and not Feiglin and MY.
I offered to bet Sagiv $1000 that he will receive more votes than Moshe Feiglin!!! He refused to make the bet!! That should tell us something important. In the end he bet me $100 and said he hopes he loses the bet!
Joel Bell got Danny Danon to show up at the last kenes last week even though Bibi forbade anyone to show up!
Do you know why?? Because Joel Bell throws 3 times the moeny on Danon that he throws at Sagiv! Once you take the first envelope, you have to pay the piper from then on. This was true for Danon last week, and it will be true for Sagiv once he's elected.
So do you all think we should still be voting Sagiv??
And could someone please tell me why MY is still backing him??
Feiglin and Fuah know that Bell is behind sagiv - it's no secret to them!
Fred Moncharsh
Here is another analysis of the Likud candidates. Based on what this guy has to say, I'm going to revise my probables as follows:
Yaalon and Begin have fallen off my list. I'm no longer comfortable with where they're holding, Eretz-Yisrael-wise, and I have little confidence in their ability to be mordim against Netanyahu when he starts planning Disengagement II (lo aleinu).
I'm also going to put Michael Kleiner on my list, even if he's a no-hoper according to many others. I don't know much about strategic voting, so I'd rather go with a candidate who I think will represent me faithfully.
I am working from the assumption that Netanyahu will swing to the Left after he's elected, and we're going to need Likud MKs with backbone enough to be mordim against him. Other than the MY candidates, plus Moncharsh and Kleiner, I have no basis for believing that any other candidate will be more than a yes-man (or woman) for Bibi - other than, of course, those who have proved their mettle already against Sharon.
Susie Dym of Mattot Arim has thoughtfully provided a scorecard of the Likud MKs who were on duty during the buildup to disengagement. There were 7 Knesset votes on disengagement. She scores 2 for voting against, 1 for abstaining, 0 for supporting. Here then is her scorecard:
14/14: Yuli Edelstein, Ayoub Kara, Ehud Yatom, Gilad Erdan, Yechiel Chazan, Moshe Kachlon
13/14: Leah Nass
12/14: Chaim Katz, Michi Ratzon
11/14: Ruby Rivlin
10/14: Gidon Saar, Gila Gamliel, Daniel Benlulu
Then come the bad guys:
4/14: Yuval Shteinitz, Silvan Shalom
3/14: Miki Eitan, Limor Livnat
2/14: Biyamin Netanyahu, Yisrael Katz
Since my list already consists of the 4 MY people plus Moncharsh and Kleiner, I'll be able to fill up my list by supporting the people who have the 14/14 record against hitnatkut. If any of those have to fall out, it'll be Yechiel Chazan on account of the double-voting scam he got caught in.
Your thoughts?
Thanks for your support
Sincerely,
Fred Moncharsh
does anybody know anything about Zev Jabotinsky? other than the fact that he is the grandson of the original Jabotinsky?
Who is Benny Begin?
http://jpost.decenturl.com/who-is-benny-begin
Like Yaalon he has this aura of authority and dignity. Well he was interviewed in the JPost and he gave himself away.
He blames Kadima for the Expulsion and so the interviewer says but Bibi supported it and only resigned at the last minute. To which Benny says, but he did resign.
Yes, Bibi got 2 out of 14 in the Dym Test, was someone who could have stopped the Expulsion by challenging Sharon early on and Begin thinks Bibi is ok because he resigned after it was too late and after allocating tens of millions of Shekels from the Fininace Ministry for Expulsion-related expenses.
Asked explicitly his opinion on a "two state solution" he doesn't answer.
He sees nothing wrong with Kadima as a coalition partner.
He likes Meridor and thinks that the Supreme Court needs to be respeted and it's fair. How can a right wing person think the Supreme Court is fair?
If you read the interview you are unlikely to think of him as right wing. He didn't say anything along those lines.
check out my comments.
http://gidonariel.wordpress.com/
Gidon
PS I have started leaning towards Tzipi Chaubeli (voted 2nd place after Stas Mejzensikov for MK with least pronounceable name). I hope to write about my reasons on the blog above.
There are lots of names on the list of potential Knesset members for Likud, and it's exciting for us to be able to select them directly. But an essential part of being an intelligent voter is having as much information as possible. That's why I went beyond the list of "preferred candidates" put out by the local MY leadership, to find out more for myself.
On the way, I discovered another candidate – Fred Moncharsh – who seems to have been betrayed and abandoned by the MY leadership, though he has been an active member for nine years. He will be listed as # 355, and will be on the separate voting list for the Jerusalem region position.
I am getting absolutely nothing out of writing this letter except maybe to assist justice to be done on some small level, and to inform my friends and acquaintances of a viable candidate that you may not have known about otherwise.
I've never met Fred. From my correspondence with him over the past several days (and you can confirm or get more info if you wish; I've cc'ed him on this letter), it seems that Fred was set to be MY's candidate for the Jerusalem region and spent the last six months working on his campaign with that understanding. Then just within the last few weeks, the MY leadership decided that Keti Sheetrit was a better option, and now you will notice that she is listed as MY's recommended candidate. Fred feels this was because of her support of Moshe Feiglin at the recent kenes he held in Jerusalem, where basically her attendance and support were exchanged for MY's solid support of her candidacy as the J'lem regional person. MY believes that Keti will deliver it more votes for Feiglin et al. than Fred can.
Fred has lived in J'lem for 25 years (other than 3 months on a moshav in the Galil). He was not one of the three original founders of MY but was with it from the very beginning. He told me that he gave Moshe Feiglin and the two other founders the idea of joining the Likud and doing what they are doing today, four years before they actually acted on it. He has been active as a loyal volunteer since the very beginning of MY, never got any money or any jobs out of it, brought them donors and solicited himself over 500 new MY members. He tells me he was in charge of J'lem's MY chapter for many years. Also he has cultivated support from non-MY Likud people whom he feels respect him. He strongly supports Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael and all the things that MY also supports, and has committed himself to never compromising on these basics. As he put it to me, his first red line is "never go against the Torah and mitzvot even if it means I lose an election!"
Thanks for your attention,
DB
Fred Moncharsh deserves our vote 100%.
You dont need to worry about Ayoub Kara -- he's a shoe in, because he's no longer on the national list, but on the "beni meeutin" list (and he's the forerunner).
Yaalon higher up in the party is important, to help counteract other leftists that might make a good showing (like Meridor, or Uzi Dayan)
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